The Wizard of Ob and the DUmmie Brainwash Cycle
Pay no attention to that man behind the teleprompter.On the heels of the SOTU speech by the Wizard of Ob, I am noticing a certain pattern among the DUmmies. It is the brainwash cycle.
The first step in the brainwash cycle is Delusion. The Wizard of Ob reads a speech from his teleprompter and the previously disillusioned DUmmies are once again inspired to the extent they think the Wizard has magically made all political problems disappear. You will hear such expressions from the DUmmies that the Wizard is like a god or that "he parked it" with his speech. This Delusion mode of the brainwash cycle is inevitably followed by the Depression cycle which sets in when the DUmmies discover that the Wizard of Ob has NOT made the problems go away. In fact the problems are even worse than before. The final stage of the brainwash cycle is Disgust. At that stage much anger is displayed against the once mighty Wizard of Ob and wonderment at how they were ever fooled by him. However, all the Wizard of Ob has to do at this point is read a nice speech from his teleprompter and the brainwash cycle resets back to the beginning at Delusion.
This is what happened most recently with the State of the Union Speech. DUmmies recycled themselves back to Delusion from the Disgust they previous experienced over the fact that the Wizard of Ob has done basically squat. No ObamaCare. No jobs created. No end of the Recession. And, worst of all, no end to the EVIL Republicans. In fact, we are now experiencing a Conservative resurgence as evidenced by the recent senate election in the Bay State. It was the latter that brought the DUmmies to their latest Disgust stage of the brainwash cylcle only to be reset by the SOTU teleprompter speech back to the initial Delusion stage as we saw in the previous DUFU EDITION.
So where are we now in the DUmmie brainwash cycle? As you can see in this DUmmie THREAD, "What Obama Did Politically with the SOTU," the DUmmies are still in the Delusion stage but there are signs that cycle will soon some to the end as it enters the Depression stage of the brainwash cycle. See, the DUmmies have discovered a new word called "Reconciliation" which they think that the mighty Wizard of Ob can wave to make all political problems go away. Wave the Reconciliation wand and the Wizard of Ob can make ObamaCare magically appear. Wave the Reconciliation wand and, poof, Cap and Trade will become a reality. Best of all, they think that the magic Reconciliation wand will make the Wizard of Ob, hiding behind his telemprompter, all powerful once again. So let us now watch the DUmmies still in the Delusion stage (with disturbing signs of Depression creeping in) worship the mighty Wizard of Ob in Bolshevik Red while the commentary of your humble correspondent, whose dog Toto gives us a peek behind the teleprompter, is in the [barackets]:
What Obama Did Politically with the SOTU
[Return the disgusted DUmmies back to the Delusion stage of the brainwash cycle.]
Obama gave the Democrats in the Senate the green light to use Reconciliation, not just for HCR, but for *everything*. When he called out that the House has done it's job last year, but the Senate failed, he clearly laid blame on the Senate. Furthermore, he called out that everything that goes through the gov't should not need a Super Majority. Which puts the blame on the current Senate rules. He couldn't be any more clear when he said: "We have a big majority, don't run for the hills". And now that the Repubs have 41 seats in the Senate, he gave them a huge warning. Either cross the line or lose your ability to have a say. Obama is indeed about to play hardball. I suspect that if the Senate cannot get the changes the House requires to pass the HCR Bill, that Obama will request that the Senate use Reconciliation. And it won't end with HCR. He basically has given the Repubs one last chance for bipartisanship. And he's turned the HCR issue into *their* Waterloo.
[Oooh! The magic Reconciliation wand. It can do everything including frying me up a plate of eggs! The mighty Ob has spoken!]
Repubs are actually in a worse spot politically with 41 seats. Their base now believes they have the power to stop anything and that they will. But it's clear Obama isn't going to let them. And if they try, Reconciliation will be used for the rest of the year. If they cross the line, their base will flip out. Obama has turned their win on its head.
[Isn't wuuuunderful that the Republicans won the "Kennedy seat" in Massachusetts. It has activated the magic Reconciliation wand. Wave it, oh mighty Wizard of Ob!]
It's going to be a very interesting over the next 2-3 weeks.
[It sure will be because that is the time frame when the DUmmies go through the entire brainwash cycle once again from their current Delusion to Depression and, finally, to Disgust. Of course, at the latter point the Wizard of Ob will need to hide behind his teleprompter in order to recycle the whole brainwash process back to Delusion once again.]
I hope you're right
[Uh-oh. The first signs of doubt in the power of the Wizard of Ob. The Delusion cycle will soon be ending and followed by the Depression stage.]
reconciliation cannot be used for "everything". let's get real
[Ugly reality. The first sign of the Depression cycle on the horizon.]
Pres. Obama is a patient man, but it appears he is finished with that. Yes, the next couple of weeks will be interesting.
[Do not anger that man behind the teleprompter. The mighty Wizard of Ob has spoken. Oh, and the next couple of weeks WILL be interesting as we watch the DUmmies enter the Depression phase of the brainwash cycle.]
Let's just hope he's finished with dat!
[You dare doubt the Mighty Ob?]
True but there is a disconnect between what Obama talks about and what the Democratic leadership in the House and Senate will do.
[No need to worry. The Wizard of Ob only needs to wave his magic Reconciliation wand and all will be right in DUmmieland again.]
Make it so, Mr. President.
[Hear my plea, oh mighty Wizard of Ob. Pretty please!]
Our President clearly laid down the gauntlet when he noted that there are now 41 GOP Senators, and thus the GOP will now "have to govern." I heard that as a smack down.
[Behold the power of the Wizard of Ob and his mighty fleet of teleprompters!]
It Took Pressure Off Democrats... The 60 vote charade was a curse as it truly wasn't a unified 60.
[Beware the wrath of the Mighty Ob who has finally cast off the 60 vote charade that was holding him back. Unleash that magic Reconciliation Wand! We beseech you oh divine Ob!]
I will believe it when I see it. remember once upon a time there was also something mentioned about "keeping our powder dry"? It got so dry it blew away.
[The Depression phase of the DUmmie brainwash cycle will commence in 3...2...1...]
Don't hold your breath... A scolding or finger wagging from Obama is about all anyone can expect, no matter what they do- and by now, everybody knows it.
[A DUmmie dares to reveal that man behind the teleprompter.]
I've heard that Republicans are ready for Reconcilliation.. That they have thousands of line-by-line amendments that they will go through if Dems use reconcilliaition.
[Gasp! You mean a mere wave of the Reconciliation wand won't magically wipe our problems away?]
Reconciliation can only be used for purely spending bills.
[Aiiiieee!!! Stop with the reality check! I'mmm MELLLTINNNGGGG!!!]
posted by PJ-Comix at 5:46 AM
66 Comments:
I will not believe it until the Horror that it ObamaCare has been put to death and buried with a stake through it's black heart. Right next to HillaryCare.
Why the Dems hold onto this disaster when the polls show a majority of the electorate DO NOT WANT it is a mystery to me. They seem to believe that once it lurches into existence in all it's crapulent, bribetastic, bureaucratic glory, they will be hailed as heroes and swept back into office.
Frankly, I think that the appearance of this nightmare will be as welcome as a rabid zombie Frankenstein, and we, the now-poor villagers will take up torch and pitchfork and kill it and the monsters that spawned it.
Pretty intelligent remark Anon, now what are you saying about the horror that is our current bloated fat-cat health care system. How about the Insurance companies that are standing between the Doctor and the patient everyday now. They got you rooting for a broken get rich (including Doctors) scheme parading itself as healthcare but its really a health denial for more profit, but that's OK as long as you hate the Dems. The Dems are just as brainwashed as you, but thats the point isn't it, keep us separated. Tea baggers and a few Palin types are breaking through, there's a new world of solutions coming and it will come from the new independents. B.S. Monitor
Repubs are actually in a worse spot politically with 41 seats. Their base now believes they have the power to stop anything and that they will.
Negative, ghost rider. Republicans have no more power today than they did 2 months ago. What Republicans are looking at is November, 2010. Take the results of elections held since Obama took office and extrapolate out 9 1/2 months on a much larger scale. I never would have believed it 1 year ago, but there is going to be a major shift in power, and thanks to the delusions of people like Paul Begala and assorted DUmmies, they haven't a clue. Leave it to the Dems to once again snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory. The one thing in life you can truly count on.
"Wave the Reconciliation wand and the Wizard of Ob can make ObamaCare magically appear."
That reminds me, didn't the Pixies make a song called "Wave of Reconciliation"?
Something to do with a "thousand pounds of garbage from New York and New Jersey"?
Anonymous 2:52 PM
Do we have a new wanna-be troll? He's certainly gotten the "provocative" terminology down. He even threw in a concilliatory "The Dems are just as brainwashed as you" to look legitamate. Wonder how long that tack will last?
I have the over/under at one more post. Any takers?
Yes, 5:15. The new wanna-be probably won't last long.
They tire quickly from their frantic search for libtard talking points.
Speaking of "points", where's little troggy?
Skul
Where oh where as our little troggy gone, oh where oh where can he be?.....
Reality based community. I STILL love that line! LOL
What? No 'Spin Cycle?'
Damned machine must've been built by union labor.
"The first step in the brainwash cycle is Delusion." PJinc
Yes it is...as last evidenced by the fact that W and his minions spent like drunken sailors for 8 years and you creampies didn't say schitzenkrupenhiemer.
Let's go over a few things.
You schlitzenheimers had an 8 year window during which the government tried your solutions - less taxes for the rich; less regulations; useless wars, bigtime free market...blah blah blah
It didn't work. Put us on the brink of disaster. Are any of you bold enough to question this? You had 8 years. You did your shit and it didn't friggin work. Own up.
Talk about brainwashing. Jeez.
Bush tried 119 terrorists as civilians. Where were all you howler monkeys then? You had 119 chances to get all freaked out, bluster and blow. But you didn't.
You also had endless opportunities to say we were spending ourselves into oblivion.
So why now? I'd love for one of you hypocrites to answer that. Let me ask it again - where were you when W gave 119 terrorists civilian trials and where were you when the country was spending and borrowing at a level unprecedented in history? Here's a reminder, you were cheering it on.
So when you talk about delusions, PJinc, the argument quickly becomes hollow. It also exposes the rest of you rugrat hypocrites for who you are. Simple as that.
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I think he's talking to you, elrond. Maybe dumbass.
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"Talk about brainwashing. Jeez"-troglaman
Good point, but I think you're missing the irony of your own statement.
Is it because you've been away so long that you're shying away from original or accurate accusations?
"I think he's talking to you elrond. Maybe dumbass."
Who's talking to me? You're incoherent (more than usual). It's what happens when you post at 4:14AM.
Hey Troggy,
How is that Healthcare reform working out for ya..... bet you and Kayinsane are just loving it..... dems had the votes and just could not get it done...... got to suck to be a dem these days.....
"Is it because you've been away so long that you're shying away from original or accurate accusations?" anon (dumb-donkey)
No. And once you restate whatever "original or accurate accusations" you're talking about, I'm sure I can respond appropriately (see how nice I'm being?)
I started out with a PJ quote - "The first step in the brainwash cycle is Delusion." Is that original and accurate enough for you or what? Or are you about to make yourself into a cute little dumb-donkey (dumb-donkeys are distantly related to sparkle-ponies if that makes you feel any better)? Go for it.
But this is typical. I, troglaman, make bold and courageous statements and I get a wimpy "Is it because you've been away so long that you're shying away from original or accurate accusations?" which doesn't even make friggin sense. But it's really really cute and sparkly.
However, I'm sure anon's inner sparkle-pony is chomping at the bit to teach the lowly (yet attractively humble) troglaman a lesson about his stupid statements.
Where would you like to start, anon?
119 civilian terrorist trials under Bush? Were you upset?
Economic melt-down due to reckless, irresponsible policies practiced under Bush? Were you howling then?
No. You weren't.
So why should I or anyone else believe that you're outraged now when 119 civilian terrorist trials took place under Bush without a peep from you dumb-donkeys? Or that, under Bush, this country spent itself into oblivion without a care as to who would eventually have to pay for it (you and me). I don't recall any of you raising alarm then either. Quite the contrary.
Once again, you're all late to the party. You're blaming Obama for shit that's gone on for freakin ever.
And why is this so complicated for you, elrond? Jesus.
Here's a fundamental difference between most of you, and I, troglaman. I think this president is trying to solve problems he inherited. You all think these problems have all of a sudden occurred because of Obama's policies. They haven't. I'd welcome anyone to convince me I'm wrong. I don't think you can.
"I'm sure I can respond appropriately (see how nice I'm being?)"-troglaman
I suppose there could be a first time. But I'm not holding my breath.
"which doesn't even make friggin sense."-troglaman
To expect you to understand would have been pushing the most optimistic of us to our limits.
"119 civilian terrorist trials under Bush? Were you upset?"-troglaman
I did a several searches but did not find this. Can you provide sources? Valid sources? If so I'm sure I can respond appropriately (see how nice I'm being).
"Economic melt-down due to reckless, irresponsible policies practiced under Bush?"-troglaman
Pre 2006 Democrat Congress 4.7% unemployment, 14,000 stock market. Post 2006 Democrat Congress 10% unemployment (and rising), less than 10,000 in the stock market. If you like, I'll get into who gave Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac a pass and who wanted them investigated.
"No. You weren't."-troglaman
Your mind-reading powers fail you.
" I think this president is trying to solve problems he inherited."-troglaman
Inheritence is an unexpected windfall. Obama fought tooth and nail for this, he wanted it. He got it. Incessant blaming of his predecessor after fighting so hard for years to receive it indicates he's an entitled spoiled brat.
"I don't recall any of you raising alarm then either"-troglaman
Unsurprisingly, you weren't paying attention.
Troglaman
"I think this president is trying to solve the problems he inherited."
Total federal government borrowing from 1789 to 2008 (219 years), $5.8trillion. Projected federal borrowing 2009 to 2011, $4.8 trillion. Projected federal deficit 2010-2020, an astounding $9,086 trillion.
Obama has taken the deficit he inherited and supersized it.
Projected federal tax increases in the next 10 years $2.3 trillion, plus tax increases resulting from O's health care plan and "cap and trade", maybe another $1.3 trillion.
Government spending 2008, $3 trillion; projected government spending in 2020 $5.7 trillion.
I'd wager that all these projections understate what will actually be borrowed and spent.
Federal fiscal policies have gone over the cliff. Can you take off your rose colored bifocals and convince me otherwise? I don't think you can.
Your inner pangloss is showing.
"Who's talking to me? You're incoherent (more than usual). It's what happens when you post at 4:14AM. elrond
Fury Warrior PvP. The guy who said "I don't write as good as you do, but if you want to check it out here it is. Thanks again and have a great day!"
That guy. The comment posted just above my troglamatically brilliant and timely "he's talking to you, elrond".
And another thing, it's 1:14 here. Not 4:14. The whole "time thing" holds certain challenges for you elrond, I know. But I get up 3 hours later than you do. It has something to do with the sun.
However, it's a testament to your intelligence to suggest we are, perhaps, ALL ONE PEOPLE under the present time/space continuum...like Star Trek. And, as you all know, I, troglaman, am down with that shit. Totally.
"Total federal government borrowing from 1789 to 2008 (219 years), $5.8trillion." elrond
Source, elrond? And before you answer, you might want to check which years demonstrated the highest level of borrowing...like when we borrowed the most money. I eagerly await your conclusions.
"I did a several searches but did not find this." the dimwit anon
"For eight years under George Bush and Dick Cheney, the policy of the U.S. government was to bring terrorist suspects to trial in federal civilian court, many of them in New York City. Since Sept. 11, according to NYU's Center on Law and Security, charges were thus filed against 828 persons – with an 89 percent conviction rate. They included two high-profile, top security trials: shoe bomber Richard Reid, in Boston, and al-Qaida operative Zacarias Moussaoui, in Alexandria, Va. – both of whom are now serving consecutive life sentences in Colorado's Supermax federal prison...By contrast, in that same period the government achieved only one conviction in a military tribunal: that of Osama bin Laden's driver, Salim Ahmed Hamdan, who was sentenced to five and a half years in prison, of which he served only six months, and is now free in Yemen."
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=124134
"While Reid was armed with stats on how many civilian trials the Bush Admin held (300), and how many terrorists are being held in federal prison w/o incident (348)..."
http://congress.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/02/02/senate-dem-leader-noncommital-to-funding-ban-for-terrorist-civilian-trials/
Are you, anon, actually moving forward with the idea that Bush never tried terrorists in civilian courts and didn't receive good results?
You're going to lose this argument. I, troglaman, promise.
Do you, anon, ever see yourself as Catwoman? It'll make sense later.
"inner pangloss" elrond
Pretty damn funny. No shit. Spandrels. You continue to surprise me despite your obvious adherence to certain beliefs that prove you...um...a wonderful, intelligent human being. Praise Jesus.
Spandrels. Nice job.
The mechanism to try terrorists before military commissions did not exist when Bush took office, and instituting it was sidetracked and then obstructed in Congress by key Dems (Or Dem-wannabes) for most of Bush's Presidency, Trog. Not like the facts behind your talking point stats actually matter to you, but I hate to see you mislead anyone innocent enough to think the stats you poop out actually mean what you say they do.
Oh, and thanks for showing us where that spin cycle function was.
Thank you for the links troglaman. It's good to see your faith in Foxnews.com's online content as well. That Bill Press is a hoot too isn't he? You see, contrary to your claims of "I don't go to links on comment pages" from many DU posts ago, I was happy to explore your sources.
You did, however presume too much when you wrote "You're going to lose this argument. I, troglaman, promise." I was not arguing with you. I was interested in your sources because there is no way on God's green Earth that such well-reasoned journalists as Katie Couric, Keith Olbermann, and well, just about anyone in ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, the NYT, The Washington Post, the LA Times, etc. would have missed an opportunity to trumpet this from the mountaintops for weeks on end once the Obama administration's "the system worked" silliness was exposed. Now that the 51 minute interrogation of the underpants bomber was followed up by him being read his rights, all the info gleaned from it is now inadmissable as evidence. But that's a conversation for another day.
The information you provided would indeed be very convincing as long as both you and Bill Press conveniently forget to mention the timeline provided by DumbAss Tanker at 9:37am. It could be that's why the media "forgot" to mention it too.
"Source, elrond?"
"The Washington Times" 10/07/09 also "The National Review" 02/02/10. You can also go to "whitehouse.gov/omb/budget"
Federal debt, per OMB:
2000: $3,409 trillion
2008: $5,802 trillion
2009: $8,531 trillion
2112: $11,468 trillion [est.]
2114: $12,594 trillion [est.]
Remember, a trillion is one thousand billion. Like I said, over the cliff.
"The mechanism to try terrorists before military commissions did not exist when Bush took office" dungass...bungass...lumberass..whatever the hell his name is.
Now see...this is the kinda thing one of you just blurts out and I, troglaman, can't help but wonder about the possibility that you were all simultaneously dropped on your collective heads. Probably happened during the 1978 liberal mother's purge of their conservative children, fittingly called "The Right Drop". Not surprisingly, the classically liberal concept of 'letting go' was then born.
"The so-called Lincoln conspirators were also tried by military commission in the spring and summer of 1865."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_tribunal
"The Nuremberg trials were a series of military tribunals..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials
And besides that, a mechanism DID exist prior to Bush for trying terrorists. That's why there're hundreds of terrorists behind bars in American prisons as we speak. What mechanism got them there? Why are these people behind bars? Answer that.
Here's a challenge for you Einsteins - Name one thing wrong about trying terrorists in civilian courts. Just. One. Thing. Be careful.
"Federal debt, per OMB:
2000: $3,409 trillion
2008: $5,802 trillion
2009: $8,531 trillion
2112: $11,468 trillion [est.]
2114: $12,594 trillion [est.]" elrond
I don't trust these numbers but I'm too tired to look around enough to prove you wrong (Go Saints). Bush never included Iraq/Afghan dollar numbers in his budgets so...we'll see.
Never the less, how did you think things were going to go? Did you really expect even an $8,531 trillion dollar debt was not going to be a problem? Think it would go away in 365 days? Do you think Bush has nothing to do with this cluterf**k (see how nice I'm being)? But that's not the problem. The problem is you all want to keep doing the exact same things that got us into this Godforsaken hell-hole in the first place.
I think you DON'T want to spend our way out of it. You'd like to cut taxes, let industry fail, let banks fail, cut education, cut Medicare, privatize social security, allow further corporate deregulation, decrease police/fireman/ambulance services, park services, garbage services; allow international corporate interests to participate in the American electoral processes...I could go on and on.
I thought of you all when I read this -
"This tax-averse city is about to learn what it looks and feels like when budget cuts slash services most Americans consider part of the urban fabric. More than a third of the streetlights in Colorado Springs will go dark Monday. The police helicopters are for sale on the Internet. The city is dumping firefighting jobs, a vice team, burglary investigators, beat cops — dozens of police and fire positions will go unfilled."
www.denverpost.com/news/ci_14303473
And it's a tourist town. That'll work out well, don't you think? Read the whole thing and be witness to the fact that you'd better be careful what you wish for.
"Now that the 51 minute interrogation of the underpants bomber was followed up by him being read his rights, all the info gleaned from it is now inadmissable as evidence." anon
Sorry...sorry...but here's another BLURT I, troglaman can't let through the troglamatic filter. Welcome to the Troglaclog Club, anon.
Did it occur to you that since pretty much everyone on the plane saw him do it, they don't need an admission? That notion ever worm its way through your frontal lobes?
Anything he says is frosting because they don't need a word of it for a conviction. And it's pretty clear this guy is talking anyway so...it's friggin working...therefore you must FLEE FOR YOUR LIVES!!!
That's all you got, Trog?
Apparently you are as great a legal scholar as Obama, the man who didn't even know what's actually in the SCOTUS decision he decided to wildly misstate, thereby embarassing himself, during his 70 minutes of pointless rah-rah blather.
The legal basis for military justice was completely changed after the Korean War, with the adoption of the UCMJ, replacing the Articles of War (Which were not the basis for the Nuremburg trials anyway). On top of that, there are about 150 years worth of SCOTUS decisions fencing in military jurisdiction over nonmilitary people since those Nineteenth Century commissions.
Did affirmative action play some major part in your education, or are your misstatements intentional lies rather than merely a negligent parade of your own ignorance?
"Did it occur to you that since pretty much everyone on the plane saw him do it, they don't need an admission?"-troglaman
Inadmissable admission, plenty of witnesses. The bad guys NEVER go free in those situations. Right?
Oh wait...
"And it's pretty clear this guy is talking anyway so..."-troglaman
Nope he clammed up after they read him his rights. You know, the right's of an American Citizen in the justice system.
From the Wall Street Journal:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703808904575025231056290438.html
"I think you DON'T want to spend our way out of it."-troglaman
Government spending does not end a recession, it prolongs it.
"You'd like to cut taxes, let industry fail,"-troglaman
One does not lead to the other but if industries fail they fail. To prop up a failing industry with government money is like trying to change a tire when the car is driving down the street. It makes the situation worse, not better.
"let banks fail,"-troglaman
Again, bad policies should not be propped up, they should be replaced with those that do work. "Throwing good money after bad" is a quote that comes to mind.
"cut education, cut Medicare,"-troglaman
*Liberal catch-phrase alert!*
to "cut" money from either of those programs there would have to be less provided than the year before. That has NEVER happened, the amount of growth has, on occasion, been a percentage or two less than the previous budget but they ALWAYS grow.
"privatize social security, allow further corporate deregulation,"-troglaman
Haven't we had the discussion about basic savings accounts and their yield compared to social security?
"decrease police/fireman/ambulance services, park services, garbage services;"-troglaman
*Liberal catch-phrase alert!*
Have you ever looked at a government budget on any level? Do you realize how much pork could be cut with a cursory glance that eclipse the cost of the above services? I would say I expect better from you but... I don't.
"allow international corporate interests to participate in the American electoral processes."-troglaman
Al Gore and Obama did exploit this, I'm with you there.
"..I could go on and on."-troglaman
Haven't you embarassed yourself enough?
trogs,
I don't trust these numbers...
The numbers are from OMB and they're on the White House website. So what's not to trust?
I read that Denver Post article too. It's a little more nuanced
(love that word) than you let on. Colorado Spring's budget deficit is due to a decline in revenues because of the recession. The citizens rejected a proposed property tax increase because they see city employees as being overpaid and receiving Cadillac benefits---benefits the citizens don't get.
Typically, the city goverment responded by cutting police and fire protection first. Turning off street lights is just an extra special pimping of Colorad Springs taxpayers.
I could go on and on.
Indeed you do. Are you going to blame Bush for the projected doubling of the national debt in the next 10 years, all nine trillion of it [plus all the tax increases that will be needed to pay the interest on it]?
Of course you are.
"Apparently you are as great a legal scholar as Obama, the man who didn't even know what's actually in the SCOTUS decision he decided to wildly misstate, thereby embarassing himself, during his 70 minutes of pointless rah-rah blather." crumbass...numbass...scumbagass...I can't remember
Why does it matter to you that Bush changed things so that "enemy combatants" gave us a militarily justified excuse to detain people, commission people, try them before a tribunal and so on? So what? Does it automatically follow that civilian trials aren't effective? No, it doesn't.
Look it up. 'Terrorist trials and convictions under the criminal justice system' vs 'terrorist trials and convictions under a military tribunal/commision'. Look it the hell up.
One can only conclude you are advocating a system of justice that doesn't work. Proven, in fact, to be dismally incompetant and inadequate and...big government (gasp!). And yet that's what you want. Then there's this.
"Inadmissable admission, plenty of witnesses. The bad guys NEVER go free in those situations. Right?" welcome to club troglaclog
I was hoping someone would go here. Name one terrorist who's escaped our criminal justice system, cloglanon. I don't think you'll be able to do it. And yet you, with a wink and a smile, assure everyone that, "The bad guys NEVER go free in those situations. Right?".
Name one terrorist who's gotten away. Simple question. Knock it outta the park.
Oh, I forgot, cloglanon...the SCOTUS decision opened up an avenue by which any US registered corportation can spend unlimited funds as long as they don't give it directly to a candidate or cause. Do I have that right? Or am I missing something.
For example, if Toyota USA or any other "American" corporate interest decided they were behind a certain politican running for local port commisioner, or state attorney general, or the mayor of a town 12 miles away from newly discovered coal mine, they could contribute unlimited funds to elect this candidate, could they not?
If I, troglaman, am right, then we're fu...um...up the creek. I hope you can put my troubled mind at ease, cloglanon.
Your inability accept your own fail bores me, Trogdog.
"I was hoping someone would go here. Name one terrorist who's escaped our criminal justice system, cloglanon. I don't think you'll be able to do it. And yet you, with a wink and a smile, assure everyone that, "The bad guys NEVER go free in those situations. Right?"."-troglaman
I think you caught yourself in your little game of "gotcha". You see, I never said terrorist. I said "bad guys". All you have to do is look in a newspaper's crime beat section, watch a crime documentary (A&E, Discovery, CIN, etc.) or parouse the true crime shelf in a book store to see how often one of these people have "escaped our criminal justice system". If you don't think there's a lawyer or 200 out there who's purpose in life has been to be the first to prove a terrorist (or "Man Made Disasterist") not guilty then you're wrong, again.
Instead of trying to read my mind so often, you should try to read my words.
It's going... going... GONE!
" I hope you can put my troubled mind at ease,"-troglaman
That's not my job. I just keep introducing you to reality, it's your decision what to do with it.
On a side note, good job cleaning up your potty mouth! One step at a time.
"I think you caught yourself in your little game of "gotcha". cloglanon
Really? How many terrorists have been set free by the American justice system? How many have gotten away with it in New York? How many times do I have to ask this? Jesus. Terrorists do qualify as "bad guys", don't they?
These are simple questions, cloglanon. All you have to do is answer them. They speak as to whether or not our criminal justice system is qualified to handle terrorist trials; whether or not terrorists have an increased chance of getting away with it if tried in criminal courts.
If someone came up to you and said something like "Better take those shoes off or they'll kill you", would it EVER occur to you to ask "Have shoes like these ever killed anyone before?" And if said murderous shoes hadn't actually murdered anyone, why would you think they could suddenly murder you? Why would you give credence to an assertion that is without basis and patently false?
Can anyone here prove to me that terrorists tried in criminal courts have "gotten away with it"? No, you can't. Despite this, based on something else, you believe giving these assholes a fair trial will lead to dire consequences. What could that 'something else' be? Hmmmm.
Would anyone like the mighty troglaman to start parsing through the above comments looking for scary, dire predictions? Easy pickings. So since there's no factual basis for believing terrorists tried in criminal court will 'get away with it', and that there are loads of scary, scary predictions about what will happen if they are tried as criminals, it's once again clear that you're a bunch of big baby...um...kitty cats. Fear drives you to your conclusions, not facts. The terrorists love you folks. You affirm them.
And you all couragously hold up the Constitution as the backbone of this country until doing so becomes too friggin scary. Brave patriots each and every one.
The operative concept operating here is 'woosies' and it's rhyming partner.
"On a side note, good job cleaning up your potty mouth! One step at a time." cloglanon
(the brave and mighty troglaman, with sweat pouring from his proud brow, clenches his teeth and stabs himself with a pencil)
By the way you wrote your most recent monologue, it's clear you read the first and the last line of my post. But nothing in between. I can say this because you ignored everything I wrote about why you are misleading yourself with your responses simply because you choose to.
Your paragraphs 1-4 and your last two sentences were written in response to statements you imagine were made but were not. Unnecessary blather at best. In the past we've been through your trouble with getting responses to your fussing but ignoring them in order to keep fussing. If that's what keeps you happy then fine but it's a waste of bandwidth until you learn.
Oh and you might want to check when you had your last tetanus shot. Those pencil wounds can be nasty if left unchecked. For now, clean the wound, apply direct pressure to stop the bleeding, and bandage.
Here to help ya!
"Your paragraphs 1-4 and your last two sentences were written in response to statements you imagine were made but were not."
It is a recurring failure on his part. He suffers from a virulent concatenation of ADD/HD and OCD. Whenever trapped by facts or logic (Ironically, often by himself) he simply dumps his RAM and jumps off on a new tangent which has some sort of word-association relationship to whatever the subject had been.
"OCD"?
Overbearing Coward Disorder?
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with it.
trog said - "Let me ask it again - where were you when W gave 119 terrorists civilian trials and where were you when the country was spending and borrowing at a level unprecedented in history? Here's a reminder, you were cheering it on."
119 terrorists civilian trails? A lie, it never happened.
Spendind and borrowing at a hgh rate? We were complaining and you were to stupid to notice.
You lie. You, trog, are a fascist and deserve to be summarily executed.
"Typically, the city goverment responded by cutting police and fire protection first." elrond
What should they have cut instead, elrond?
Honest question.
"All you have to do is look in a newspaper's crime beat section, watch a crime documentary (A&E, Discovery, CIN, etc.) or parouse the true crime shelf in a book store to see how often one of these people have "escaped our criminal justice system". scary cloglanon
Who are you referring to here, clog? The terrorists or the 'bad guys'? Because if you're referring to terrorists, you're simply wrong. Then again, you may be talking about pot smokers and car thieves. In that case, you'd be dead-on, bro.
Now I just went through all the comments here and didn't find one admission that criminal courts are indeed effective. Even though they indisputedly are, not one of you recognizes it. Could one of you Einsteins explain that? Are any of you going to admit this obvious truth or are we going to continue making troglaman the smartest (yet attractively humble) hominoid on earth?
"You lie. You, trog, are a fascist and deserve to be summarily executed." cloglanon
Sorry folks...
Fuck you, pussy. You couldn't define a fascist if your life depended on it. Or a socialist. Or a mollusk. Or a potatoe.
QUICK CHALLENGE!!!
Define each one of the subjects mentioned above...you have 30 seconds. Ready?
...
...
...
bbbbrrrzzzzzttt!
Oh. I'm so so sorry. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep trying, cloglanon. Keep trying. I think God likes it when a douche bag is continually humiliated for being a douche bag. Sublime justice.
"Who are you referring to here, clog? The terrorists or the 'bad guys'?"-troglaman
Ok, we'll go through this slowly. Here I was talking about the 'bad guys'. They are only one's I ever said got off despite witnesses and confessions. You said you went through all the comments (I applaud your efforts) but apparently you were looking for the wrong thing.
Remember I wrote this:
"If you don't think there's a lawyer or 200 out there who's purpose in life has been to be the first to prove a terrorist (or "Man Made Disasterist") not guilty then you're wrong,"-Anonymous 1:29pm
Notice the word "first". Now historically defense attorneys have been able to get Not Guilty verticts for non "Man Made Disasterist" clients even with witnesses and confessions. It can and probably will (although I hope not) be the same way with the "Man Made Disasterists". Does that clear it up some for you?
"I think God likes it when a douche bag is continually humiliated for being a douche bag. Sublime justice."-troglaman
Irony Alert! That's twice in this thread you've missed the irony of your own statement.
troggy,
What should they have cut instead, elrond? Honest question.
How refreshing.
The City of Colorado Springs is in an economic bind due to a steep decline in tax revenues. City officials have to cut non-essential services and employees*
and/or implement an across the board temporary cuts in the wages and benefits of city comployees (starting with the city officials) until such time as the city's economy revives. Too, public works projects (road widenings or repavings, construction of new public buildings, etc.) can be postponed.
*Non essential public employees include assistant principals, teaching assistants and play ground monitors, clerks and janitors, assistant librarians, year round public parks workers, etc.
Note that I'm calling for temporary cuts, not permanent. But I believe that public employees should not be exempted from the sacrifices that their fellow citizens in the private sector are
making.
"Notice the word "first". Now historically defense attorneys have been able to get Not Guilty verticts for non "Man Made Disasterist" clients even with witnesses and confessions. It can and probably will (although I hope not) be the same way with the "Man Made Disasterists". Does that clear it up some for you?" cloglanon
You're speculating, mister bossy man. You're predicting what defense lawyers (those scary, scary bastards) MIGHT achieve in their diabolical plan to achieve world dominance. You're a nutbag.
Let me ask you again, anon, for the last time. You're failure to answer is on you. Were any terrorists set free by a criminal trial? By a defense attorney? There have been hundreds of terrorists tried as criminals so it should be more than easy to prove me wrong. But you can't. It's indesputable. That tell you something? Sadly not.
I haven't failed to answer anything. Nor am I speculating. You asked "were any terrorists set free by a criminal trial?"
Lets look at this exchange on November 18th to get our answer.
"Attorney General Eric Holder: I have thought about that possibility. Congress has passed legislation that would not allow the release of these individuals in this country. If there is not a successful conclusion to this trial, that would not mean that this person would be released into this country…
Grassley: My understanding is that if for some reason he’s not convicted, or a judge lets him off on a technicallity, he’ll be an enemy combatant, so you’re right back where you started."
No terrorists wer set free by criminal trials because their never actually were any. Since (as Dumbass Tanker noted) "the mechanism to try terrorists before military commissions did not exist when Bush took office, and instituting it was sidetracked and then obstructed in Congress by key Dems (Or Dem-wannabes) for most of Bush's Presidency" the civilian trials you mentioned were de-facto military trials for the simple reason AG Holder and Grassly mentioned above. The result of a civilian trial is Not Guilty, released into their own recongnisance, or Guilty sent to local or Federal detention. Neither of those results ever happened. If it did, it would be the focus of the national debate we've been having here. It's not.
Eric Holder himself is proving you wrong.
TrogL,
"Eric Holder is proving you wrong."
Eric Holder is proving clueless. Per the Washington Post, Obama has taken over the determination of the location and venue of the KSM trial. Apparently the White House doesn't like the heat being generated by politicians (Shumer, Gillibrand, Bloomberg, Feinstein, et al.)who oppose staging the trial in NYC.
Considering all the prejudicial pre-trial comments made the Attorney General and the White House about KSM's guilt (and inevitable execution), moving the trial to a military court may be necessary since the defendants' right to a fair trial in a civilian court has been fatally compromised and federal judges don't take kindly to show trials
Back to Gitmo.
"No terrorists wer set free by criminal trials because their never actually were any." cloglanon
You're a friggin idiot. You're actually declaring no civilian terrorists trials took place, is that right, cloglanon? What a dumbass. I mean really. What a stupid friggin dumbass.
Do I, the mighty troglaman, need to site every one of the civilian, terrorist trials? No.
Loud and clear dumbass cloglanon is.
troggy,
That's "cite" not "site", your inner dumbass is showing again.
Please explain why non-citizen, enemy alien combatants are entitled to Miranda rights and civilian trials in federal courts.
Does the Constitution provide for this? And why is Obama trying to ignore Congress' prior authorization of military tribunals? Do you oppose military tribunals because you're a whacky leftist still obsessed with Bush era counter-terrorism?
Civilian trials don't end with the guilty party being remanded to military custody and sent to military detentions centers.
Or is that how they do things in the Northwest?
"Civilian trials don't end with the guilty party being remanded to military custody and sent to military detentions centers." here kitty kitty
No, they most often don't. So what?
First of all, you can explain why you have a problem with the hundreds of terrorists who've been previously convicted in criminal courts.
Secondly, you can explain why having these bimbos tried in military court somehow makes more sense.
Military Commissions have put away 3 terrorists in recent years. Compare the record. Need I, troglaman, say more?
Holder himself confirmed that the results of the "civilian" trials sent the terrorists to military custody. Whether or not they were found guilty. That's not a result of civilian trial.
"No, they most often don't. So what?"-troglaman
Most often? You're spinning your wheels.
Terrorists should be tried in a military court because they are not citizens of the US an do not deserve the rights of a citizen of the US.
By the way. You have my sympathy for spending the night of your Valentines day on the internet.
Toggs sez:
"...can you explain why having these bimbos tried in a military court somehow makes more sense.
It makes all kinds of sense: 1) these bimbos are not U.S. citizens, 2) they are waging war on the United States, 3) they are terrorists killing Americans, not car thieves, 4)a trial in a civilian court involves
discovery, U.S. intelligence agencies would be forced to turn over secret information (as happened in the trial of the 1st WTC bombers), 5) a military tribunal would deprive the terrorists of a platform to preach jihad to their fellow bimbos overseas and here in the U.S., 6) security measures would be ruinously expensive and prolonged (a civilian trial could take two years), 7)Congress previously approved military tribunals for terrorist suspects.
The proposed civilian trial of KSM in New York City is already dead (killed by NY politicians and an outraged public), nobody else wants these bimbos in their yard.
Solution: military tribunal.
"Terrorists should be tried in a military court because they are not citizens of the US an do not deserve the rights of a citizen of the US." anon
The Constitution does NOT differentiate as to citizenship during trial. You will not prove me, troglaman, wrong on this point. Don't even try.
What is, again, apparent is your clear belief in a talking point distortion/misinterpretation of the Constitution. You're wrong. Everyone tried in a US courtroom has the protections of the Constitution. Citizenship doesn't matter.
Except to you, of course...as you've notably pointed out.
Why do you hate the Constitution, anon?
The Constitution provides the right to public trial to any person in criminal prosecutions. Terrorism is an act of war against our country, not simply a criminal act.
"Citizenship doesn't matter.
Except to you, of course...as you've notably pointed out."-troglaman
Thank you for noticing this. Yes, citizenship does matter to me. I have personal profound experience as to why this is so. I'm saddened you don't feel the same.
Why do you hate American Citizens troglaman?
"Thank you for noticing this. Yes, citizenship does matter to me." anon
But it doesn't matter to the Constitution. This country's Constitution. That's a fact.
Think your citizenship one-ups the Constitution, anon? That's a 'yes' or 'no'.
"But it doesn't matter to the Constitution."-troglaman
In civil or criminal prosecution, no. I've established that. In acts of war, yes. If the fact that an act of terrorism against our country qualifies it as a criminal case on the grounds that he wasn't wearing a uniform and it was on U.S. territory then we might as well try pedofiles in juvenile court because the crime involved a child.
Terrorism is an act of war, by non citizens and it should be treated as such.
Your question "Think your citizenship one-ups the Constitution, anon? That's a 'yes' or 'no'." represents a Bifurcation Fallacy, especially since I never said one trumped the other.
"In acts of war, yes." anon
Has Congress declared war?
Nope.
"If the fact that an act of terrorism against our country qualifies it as a criminal case on the grounds that he wasn't wearing a uniform and it was on U.S. territory then we might as well try pedofiles in juvenile court because the crime involved a child." anon
It has nothing to do with wearing a uniform, dumbass. It has to do with committing the criminal act of terrorism. Criminal pedofiles don't wear uniforms either. Your analogy is pathetic.
Look. Are any of you Einsteins willing to tell me that the criminal justice sytem hasn't been 100% effective in prosecuting terrorist crime? Go ahead. Tell me I'm wrong. It's indesputable. I can prove it all night long.
So what is it you're afraid of? What boogy-man do you wish to conjure?
The salient point is that you're afraid. You keep saying so again and again. And that's why Osama loves you.
If the criminal justice system is so wonderful in combatting terrorist crime why are so many people (including NY's two senators, the mayor of NY, many other members of Congress, the Ameircan public) so opposed to the determination to stage the trial of KSM in New York City?
People who hold a position contrary yours afraid of the terrorist boogeyman; they are people of common sense. Big difference.
BTW, you haven't responded to the seven points I made in my posting above.
Time to re-think your indefensible position t-man.
BTW:Congress has not declared war, Congress does not have to declare war for the USA to be involved in one (i.e. Korea, Vietnam) it only has to authorize the Presdient to take the appropriate actions. Are you saying Iraq and Afghanistan are not wars? Or that 9/11 was not
an act of war?
My analogy is fine. Your thinking however is suspect. Since you keep wanting to forget that all the cases tried in "criminal court" would have had the same result whether the terrorist won or lost, as per Eric Holder's admission.
Unless, you were just giving credit for all the terrorists "convicted" during the Bush Administration. In which case you're much bolder than most liberals in that admission.
"The salient point is that you're afraid. You keep saying so again and again."-troglaman
Your mind reading powers are as mysterious as your claraudience abilities. But not very accurate. Keep working on it!
"And that's why Osama loves you."-troglaman
You know Osama Bin Laden?! I'd be careful around him. And I wouldn't trust him if I were you.
"BTW, you haven't responded to the seven points I made in my posting above." elond
Yes, I have. Have any terrorists escaped our criminal justice system? Answer that. Have any terrorists escaped our military tribunal system? Answer that. Look it up.
You're just wrong, elrond. Simple as that.
troggy,
Yes, I have.
No, you haven't. Please re-read what I have written.
When Senator Schumer, Mayor Bloomberg, et al. and I agree that you're wrong, you know something ground shaking has happened.
Anyway, we're headed south for two weeks. So I won't be responding to your blather.
Have fun, elrond.
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