Tuesday, July 21, 2009

QAHCAA Panic Attack In KOmmieland

Interesting. Rush was a big reason why Health Care Scam I was derailed in 1994 and it looks like he will be repeating the performance (aided by the Internet this time) this year. The more people that learn about the Obama QAHCAA (Quality, Affordable Health Coverage for All Americans---official title) plan, the more the opposition grows. Therefore time is NOT on their side which is why the KOmmies are now in a state of panic as you can see in this THREAD, "This is THEIR Waterloo...in the Class War." So let us now watch the KOmmies watch their plan sink beneath the Water-loo in Bolshevik Red while the commentary of your humble correspondent, also now wearing the hat of humor columnist at the Canada Free Press, is in the [barackets]:

"Breaking," This is THEIR Waterloo...in the Class War

[And this is what QAHCAA is all about to the KOmmies---class war.]

If we're able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him."

[And it will be OUR victory party.]

Yeah, that is true. IF you the Republicans and Blue Dogs and the Insurance and Big Pharma Industries are indeed able to stop Obama from giving the 75% of Americans what they want and desperately need... It will break him. Just as it broke Clinton and forced him in to the middle to please republicans....who then paid him back for compromising by impeaching him. This IS Obama's issue. If he loses, if WE lose, Health Care it will damage his Presidency and the rest of his agenda severely, just as it did with Clinton. But, um......what if he, what if WE, win? They are throwing absolutely everything they have onto the battlefield to stop Health Care.

[It sure didn't help when the Senate accurately gave it the acronym of QAHCAA. The rest of this KOmmie's rant is the typical KOmmie class war routine so let us skip over it to the reaction from the rest of the KOmmies...]

Silver bullets and wooden stakes. Those bastards aren't human.

[Attack of the Zombie Republicans!!!]

The enemy in this war is artificial person -- the alien life form known as corporations. This is an undeclared war of one cancerous, anomalous life form (corporations) against all other living things, including the planet Gaia itself. Which issue can you find in which the corporations -- mega-banks, insurance, pharmaceuticals, the military-industrial complex, media giants, energy giants, polluters, strip miners, ad infinitum -- are not the enemy? This is the underlying truth of all Progressive causes -- the enemy is the corporation, artificial life. It is devouring all that we love and hold dear. We are engaged in The War of the Worlds, like it or not. And the government is a tool of the enemy. But this alien life form cannot live outside the petri dish of government subsidies. This slime feeds on our blood, and we need to remove the food source. De-privatizing is the right and only way.

[It sounds like you are engaged in the War of the Weirds.]

Why not single payer? you know -its our only shot at REAL affordability and universality.. why are they blowing it? Why the lies?

[But...but how could the Blessed Barack lie?]

I called Evan Bayh yesterday. I gave them an earful. That he needed to stop his foot dragging and show some leadership, was he a Democrat or not???? Call Evan Bayh. I told him we dems were watching all the dems and how they vote. The person I talked to listened, really listened. Call, call, call. Didn't hurt to say I was a contributor to Act Blue, which I am. or to tell a personal story, which I did.

[You just picked up the phone and got Evan Bayh on the other end? Riiiiiight.]

F*cking Blue Dogs! They'd rather continue to pocket healthcare lobbyist cash than pass a good healthcare bill and retain a strong Dem majority in congress in 2010. I am soooo f*cking pissed!

[Want a hankie?]

They don't have troops on the ground. WE have troops on the ground and I'm one of them. Going to an Obama healthcare meeting on Thursday w/ a field organizer and other canvassers. WE ARE the troops on the grounds. They have their corporations and their money and their scare tactics. The troops on the ground (US) helped win the election and we can help win this, too! Let's do it!

[I'll give you some tin soldiers you can play with in the sandbox]

Obama has POWER. He doesn't have to beat his chest and talk about how much political capital he has, or how he's got some kind of mandate to do whatever. He just has to say he won't campaign for you, or worse, that he's going to support your opponent, or even worse, that he's going to find somebody to primary you and ask all his backers (that's US) to support them. My bet is that's what's going on now, with those in the Congress who are hesitant to get on board with health reform.

[Obama is empowered by his teleprompter.]

This is a battle we can and will win! We won't be intimidated this time!

[Declared Deputy Dawg.]

I think the fate of the entire progressive agenda is at stake here. Too many "reforms" have been bogus or half-assed. I say we march on DC for a veto if he tries to pass another bait and switch off.

[Forward MARCH!!!]

Obama must be our Iron Duke and Marshall Blucher combined..and toss in Richard Sharpe of "Sharpe's Waterloo" (B Cornwell) and Horatio Hornblower to boot. We can break them here, on this ground.

[Obama will be more like your Burnside and Hooker.]


Anonymous Corona said...

Forget what the assholes said, I still can't get over that O named it QAHCAA. His knowledge of scatology must run deep. Real deep.

7:00 AM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

This is what Obamacare has in store for your parents/grandparents, Dutch style healthcare......


Some of these deaths are the classic cases cited by right-to-die advocates: A terminally ill patient, in agony, demanding to "die with dignity." But many are not. An estimated 5,981 people--an average of 16 per day--were killed by their doctors without their consent, according to the Dutch government report.

Obama wants to kill nana, and granpa, since they cost too much.


I think, given that the member of Congress who drafted H.R. 3200 read and take seriously people like Klien, Yglesias, and Singer, we should be very troubled by Section 1233 of H.R. 3200. The section, titled Advanced Care Planning Consultation” requires senior citizens to meet at least every 5 years with a doctor or nurse practitioner to discuss dying with dignity.

11:00 AM  
Anonymous Smitty said...

We are engaged in the war of the Worlds...And the government is the tool of the enemy.

Thank you DUmmie for that ironic truth. Yes indeed, the federal government is controlled by people out to subvert America and its institutions.

3:07 PM  
Blogger Tazzerman said...

Has anybody READ the freakin bill? ANYBODY?

4:07 PM  
Anonymous Krazy Kat said...

Has anybody READ the Freakin bill? ANYBODY?

Anybody? Obama?...Bueller?

4:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

De-privatizing is the right and only way.

"De-privatization" assumes that health care was "privatized" to begin with, which it wasn't. It's always been private.

Semantics aside, this DUmmie just called for nationalization. What's the rationale here? That something is too big and too important to NOT be run by the government? What happens when someone you don't like is in office?

4:35 PM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

"Interesting. Rush was a big reason why Health Care Scam I was derailed in 1994 and it looks like he will be repeating the performance (aided by the Internet this time) this year." PJinc.

And look how well that worked out. So interesting how much you unbelievably deluded marionettes know about something that didn't happen - health care reform. It never happened. Your screeching and harping is not about what IS happening, it's always about what MIGHT happen. Socialism. Communism. Killing grandma.

You're right PJ, you fuckers stopped it. Because of your certainty of what MIGHT happen. What's missing from your typically dumbass bullshit is what is ACTUALLY happening.

Everyone of our exalted leaders get socialized health care. It's an option. They don't have to do it. Not one of them go for the private option. Not one. You happy with that?

Preexisting conditions, such as diabetes, cancer, thyroid conditions, etc...ANY preexisting condition is denied because it's how every health insurance makes money. Never mind that this mentality costs us even more because what could have been diet controlled diabetes ends up as emergency amputation (it's usually a foot or leg) because of untreated diabetes. Hospitals absorb this cost but find it necessary to raise the cost of a cotton-ball to pay for it. Which raises insurance rates.

You all know what I, troglaman, am talking about. And any of you homos about to jump my ass with a story about how your insurance company is so so wonderful and happily agrees with you and your Dr. are simply full of shit until you disclose your insurance, how much it costs, and who's paying for it (hear me ray?).

What. Is. Your. Brilliant. Alternative? Doing the same thing?

And this "Birther" stuff (Thank you Jesus). Keep it up you root crops. Go forward. They don't know you like I, troglaman, do. It's a winning strategy.

12:44 AM  
Anonymous Ray said...

I hear you, Troggy. My insurance is provided by Blue Cross/Blus Shied of Minnesota and I pay 230. dollars a month for that coverage (they cover half as I work there). BTW, the total cost of my health insurance per month is about the same as what I pay for for home insurance.

They allow me to choice from any one of 30 primary care clinics in the metro area, allow me to chance that primary care clinic any time I wish. They cover any emergency visits to ANY hospital, not just those covered by the program, that I may need and they even pay for the meds I take, minus a 10 dollar co-payment. Oh, and ther'es a 40 dollar co-payment for clinit and hospital visits too. I've had this coverage for over ten years now. It's paid for my Corhn's treatment, paid for the surgery I needed, and paid for all follow up and medications I use.

So, Troggy, does that answer your ranting and raving?

Noe, Troggy, the same question to YOU! Are you man enough to answer or are you just going to sit on your lazy ass, slinging accusations around needlessly like a petulant child?

7:49 AM  
Anonymous DumbAss Tanker said...

I noticed that in making an extended comparison of how expensive health care is in the US vs. other industrialized countries, without achieving significantly better lifespans, Obama studiously avoided any mention whatsoever of the fact that our lotto-like tort system is the one factor that is truly unique to our operating environment, and distinguishes our system from theirs.

Lawyers in the tort bar have devoted great effort to proving that the actual cost of tort litigation is small relative to the cost of health care, which is true as far as it goes. However, their analysis completely ignores the macroeconomic impacts which drastically drive up the cost of health care in the 99-plus percent of patient interactions that do not involve malpractice, becasue they DO involve procedures and protocols that are followed purely for litigation-avoidance reasons. the oft-cited example of the drastic rise of Caesarian deliveries in the John Edwards 'Channeling ghosts' days of birth injury litigation comes to mind.

8:15 AM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

Troggy said,

Everyone of our exalted leaders get socialized health care. It's an option. They don't have to do it. Not one of them go for the private option. Not one. You happy with that?

You have got to be kidding, Ted Kennedy did not have to wait one second in a waiting room to be told that the wait for an opening to get his brain tumor removed was six months to a year or two away. (Canada and Great Britain)

Members of congress are never going to be exposed to the socialized plan all of us (subjects/serfs/taxpayers) will be forced on to if they get their way, that is why they have written legislation specifically excluding them from this wonderful health-care reform.....

If this plan is so great, WHY WON'T THEY JOIN US ON IT!!!!!!!

10:37 AM  
Anonymous kayinmaine said...

9/11 NEVER HAPPENED! It was a controlled demolition done by Cheney and Halliburton and for the Rothchilds, Templars and Zionists!

2:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You're right PJ, you fuckers stopped it. Because of your certainty of what MIGHT happen.

Like missile defense, privatization of social security, tort reform, off-shore oil exploration, ANWR... the list goes on dumbass.

2:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

On a seperate topic, I am on an AOB (Advanced Operating Base, Special Forces) in Iraq and we have a little MWR room where we get AFN. Apparently they rotate the news programs they show, and they show the Rachel Maddow program. Needless to say the comments form the crowd (all SF soldiers) were quite hillarious, apparently not a lot of Rachel Maddow fans out here. Most of them questioning her haircut/sexuality, followed by her intelligence. On the flip side, they are quite fond of Glenn Beck, though I can take him or leave him.

2:29 PM  
Anonymous Elrond Hubbard said...

Everyone of our leaders gets socialized health care. It's an option...Not one of them go for the private option.

Even from you that's a remarkabley stupid statement.

Do you honestly think that our betters in the White House, Senate and House have socialized health care? The same kind of socialized care that is being offered the masses in the Health Plan under current consideration?

If you do, you're a bigger imbecile than I thought possible.

2:56 PM  
Anonymous Elrond Hubbard said...


Give it up toots, nobody cares what you say. Anyway, I think you're a moby.

2:59 PM  
Anonymous KayInMaine said...

9/11 NEVER HAPPENED! It was a controlled demolition done by facist Cheney and Blackwater and Halliburtin for the Rothchilds, Templars and Zionists!

12:24 AM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

"I hear you, Troggy. My insurance is provided by Blue Cross/Blus Shied of Minnesota and I pay 230. dollars a month for that coverage (they cover half as I work there)." Ray

Ray stepped up.

I pay about the same. My deductible is $500. If I add my wife, I'll pay an additional $700 per month. She has her own health insurance right now, thank God. She also pays around $225 per month. Her deductible is also $500.

So, if you add up what the three (how cozy) of us and our employers pay per month, we end up with about $4,360.00. A month. $52,420.00 a year. Our co-pays increase that total. Prescriptions, lab-work, blah blah blah.

You, I, my wife and our employers are paying more than $52,420 a year. For the three of us.

Three of us. Care to extrapolate?

Your congress person and your senator have chosen to opt into socialist America while not giving you the option to do the same thing. They require you, me, and my wife (so cozy) to pay at least $52,420 per year while they don't.

They could if they wanted to, but they don't. They could buy into what they're trying to sell you and I but they don't.

Fuck them and anyone else who thinks this shit is somehow benefiting you, me, my wife and the companies we work for. Our little collective is spending $52,420 FUCKING DOLLARS PER YEAR and it's not enough.

But it probably paid for your surgeries. And, if I, troglaman, find out you slipped some personal enhancement collagen in there I'll hunt you down.

Thanks again, Ray. Really. I appreciate the rare description of your truth.

1:26 AM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

"Do you honestly think that our betters in the White House, Senate and House have socialized health care?" elrond Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi

Yes. They do. It's called the VA, you stupid asshole. Last I checked, you and I pay for it. With taxes. The Chinese only bankroll the operation.

1:56 AM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

"However, their analysis (of tort litigation) completely ignores the macroeconomic impacts which drastically drive up the cost of health care." tanker

Jesus fucking Christ. Have you guys just been playing dumb? I think so.

Money. The insurance companies want it. The lawyers want it. And in case you haven't been paying attention, the people in the court rooms are the lawyers and the insurance companies. Who is it that's paying for them to be there? That'd be you and me. We've somehow come to believe that those two benevolent industries represent our best interests when, in fact, they're sticking their sweaty protuberances up our willing and wanting bung-holes and fucking us out of everything they can.

Listen. You fuckers want to go for the status quo, then go. It's not working now, and it's not going to work in the future. Everyone but you dumbshits knows this. Something different has to happen. And you zucchini's can't come up with a reasonably different answer. Ever.

2:41 AM  
Anonymous DumbAss Tanker said...

Well, Trog, you're reacting, your words just don't add up to anything that sounds remotely like a logical response.

7:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Yes. They do. It's called the VA, you stupid asshole. Last I checked, you and I pay for it. With taxes."

Yup, the VA. Along with Medicare and Medicaid, it's a bastion of efficiency, and quality care paralleled only by the post office and the IRS.

Let's give the government even more control over our lives and our money. With the above as examples, what could go wrong?

9:55 AM  
Anonymous Ray said...

"Three of us. Care to extrapolate?"

Why did you add up THREE different totals to arrive at your number? Why is that? Some people pay higher insurance premiums, some even pay none at all, so what's your point? Try adding up the yearly property taxes for just a single block of any major metropolitan area and you'll be shocked at the astounding amounts that are paid every year.

My yearly total is $2,760.00, which is cheap considering the surgery I had cost more that $30,000.00, for just the doctor fees! That $2,760.000 is also less that pay for my Home Insurance, and even FAR cheaper than I pay in just property taxes. Now, add in the Car Insurance, the FICA Taxes, the Income Taxes,, Licenses Fees, ect. and you'll find the number appear astronomical high, especially when we start adding yous and mine together. It appears that life is expensive. So, Troggy, just what is your point?

10:22 AM  
Anonymous Ray said...

"It's not working now, and it's not going to work in the future"

Troggy, you're a fool. My health insurance works BEAUTIFULLY! Do you know who much I would have to pay out of pocket for my Crohn's treatments if I didn't have private insurance? Not only would the costs bankrupt me, I'd probably be DEAD because I wouldn't have been able to afford the surgery and medications that saved my life! So, you moronic fool, go peddle your garbage somewhere else, your bullshit isn't going to impress me one iota, let alone convince me that the government would be better at managing my health.

I KNOW FIRSTHAND that my PRIVATE insurance is a great benefit as it has help me, thanks tio my DOCTORS, to control a devastating illness, one which could actually KILL ME if it wasn't for the treatments I received, and still receive, and it didn't cost the taxpayers a single dime!

As a matter of fact, those insurance premiums actually BENEFIT the taxpayers as the income the private insurance companies receives from those premiums are TAXED! As is the income of the people, like myself, who WORK FOR THOSE COMPANIES!. So, care to "extrapolate" on that, fool?

10:37 AM  
Anonymous Jerome Goolsby said...

Troglaman The Guttersnipe's problem is the same as with all Democratic Socialists and Moonbats. They claim it doesn't work now because THEY aren't running it, and without their genius it will never work right.

Guttersnipe can't answer one thing coherently though - if our system is so irrevocably screwed up, why do so many people come HERE for health care? Better yet, why do you not hear of all the Americans who leave here for other nations because of their vastly superior health care systems (not counting the people who go for wild unproven cancer treatments in Mexico)? The logical answer is we have the best system. Guttersnipe will have to consult with his friends Jack Daniels and Jim Beam before giving us his usual crap after power slamming his head up his ass.

The way to fix the problem is not to destroy the system as Guttersnipe demands along with the Moonbat/DSA coalition. The way you do it is get rid of the entire insurance system process and do tort reform. Once you make people pay for their own stuff, the price WILL come down. After all, doctors have to earn a living as well, so they will charge what they know they can get. The cost of MEDICARE is the problem because of the guarenteed money. Drop that failing program and institute serious tort reform and the cost drops.

But it's very obvious that the public at large doesn't agree with Guttersnipe and want the entire system destroyed so the evil insurance man doesn't get their money. That's because they understand that the "evil insurance man" will be replaced by the "stone hearted government man" and that will be an even worse scenario, the protestations of Troglaman The Guttersnipe and his pals Jack and Jim notwithstanding.

11:41 AM  
Anonymous radical redneck said...

Kayinsane losing her last marble feeling the heat of her beloved BFF sinking into the abyss!

The mental state of the current republican party is poor (Yes, she really did remark about someone else's mental state). They are all on the verge of a nervous breakdown and it’s because they cannot prove that President Obama is an illegal alien, because they know damn well he’s not! They hate President Obama because he’s got black Kenyan blood running through his veins and are using the President’s birth as a way to cut around the fact that they’re all racists! Anyone who is questioning President Obama’s birth and citizenship is A RACIST. SPIT!

the Birthers refuse to listen & absorb the facts. These are racist assholes who need to be rounded up, shot, and then pissed on because they are an embarrassment to our country!

Americans hate you and your party! SPIT!

And what about the WHITE neighbor who originally called the police in this incident? Did she not recognize Professor Gates with his cane in broad daylight? the neighbor purposely called the police on Gates in another incident of blatant racism!

I’m not surprised Jon Stewart is the most trusted person in news today, because he uses his humor to cut through all the daily bullshit. He’s what America needs. What is so surprising to me about this poll is Brian Williams was a part of it. What the hell is he doing on there! He’s a right wing shill!

Keith Olbermann, David Shuster, & Rachel Maddow are the only other newscasters who I trust to get the facts right.

3:33 PM  
Anonymous Elrond Hubbard said...


As usual, you either misunderstood or (more likely) ignored what I really said.

Accordingly, go fuck yourself.

3:50 PM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

"Why did you add up THREE different totals to arrive at your number? Why is that?" Ray

I added up what the 3 of us (you, me and my wife) and our employers pay per year in premiums. $52,420. As to why I did it, it should be obvious. That figure represents you, me and my wife. 3 people. Now multiply that by millions (called extrapolation) and hopefully you'll begin to understand how much we're all paying. You should also understand that the people we're paying this obscene amount of money to routinely stop paying for your treatment. In fact, they get paid a bonus for finding a reason to do so.

You're obviously fine with that. I'm not. The fact that you're fine with it doesn't make you a dumbass, it makes you a dumb-fucking cucumber scum-sucking squid. I'm sorry.

But you stepped up. How about the rest of you, including PJinc? What do happy dumbshits pay? Tell me all about your super cheap all American, number one health care.

But before you do, you might want to consider this:

Circulatory disease deaths per 100,000:

* Canada: 219

* United States: 265

Child maltreatment deaths per 100,000:

* Canada: 0.7

* United States: 2.2

Digestive disease deaths per 100,000:

* Canada: 17.4

* United States: 20.5

Infant mortality rate per 1,000 live births

* Canada: 5.08

* United States: 6.3

Intestinal diseases death rate

* Canada: 0.3%

* United States: 7.3%

Proability of not reaching age 60:

* Canada: 9.5%

* United States: 12.8%

Respiratory disease child death rate per 100,000

* Canada: 0.62

* United States: 40.43

Heart disease deaths per 100,000:

* Canada: 94.9

* United States: 106.5

HIV deaths per million people:

* Canada: 47.423

* United States: 48.141

We're paying more than any other country on earth for health care and Canada is kicking our ass.

Sometimes I, troglaman, have to remember that you all are the stupidist mother-fuckers on the planet and it will take patience to bring you around. On the other hand, you're the stupidist mother-fuckers on the whole goddamn planet.

1:46 AM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

I just got bit by a fucking bat. I'm not kidding. I've got a window open (believe it or not, it's hot in and around Seattle) which allows my 2 cats to enter and exit at will. Then there's this dark object lying on the carpet being closely observed by said cats which I thought was a fucking sock. I picked it up and..."scree scree scree" it bit me.

If I begin asking you all for a drink of water...then rudely denigrate you...please understand that I, troglaman, got the goddamn rabies. It's not my fault.

2:32 AM  
Anonymous Ray said...

I know what you want, troggy, you was the best care available at someone else's expense. You want your cake, but want someone else to pay for it. Guess what? That makes you a GREEDY asshole, worse than any "rich" man or woman. So take your greed and go live in the Hamptons. You'll fit right in.

9:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"If I begin asking you all for a drink of water...then rudely denigrate you...please understand that I, troglaman, got the goddamn rabies. It's not my fault."

In that case, are you sure this bat didn't bite you years ago?

11:07 AM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

Why are all the Canadians that want health care fast coming here......

Wait, wait, wait, the government can out wait grandma and grandpa to save the taxpayer money........

Breast cancer incidence United Kingdom: 26.0 per 100,000
Canada: 22.6 per 100,000
United States: 21.2 per 100,000

Heart Disease Deaths
United Kingdom: 122.0 per 100,000
United States: 106.5 per 100,000

Digestive disease deaths
United Kingdom: 22.1 per 100,000
United States: 20.5 per 100,000

SARS fatalities Canada: 43
United States: 0
(this little section is the most fun)

Tuberculosis cases > Per 100,000
United Kingdom: 5
Canada: 3
United States: 2
(Canada has a higher TB rate than the US)

Tuberculosis cases detected under DOTS
United States: 85.12 % (2.349 TB patients total)

Canada: 63.79 % (4.072 TB patients total)

(Canada finds fewer of the existing cases)

Tuberculosis treatment success rate > % of registered cases
Canada: 61.64 % (1.15 unsuccessfully treated)
United States: 60.73 % (.785 unsuccessfully treated)

(barely treats the cases it finds more successfully that the evil capitalists)

meaning that

US 0.349 + .785 = 1.134
Canada 1.072 + 1.15 = 2.222

(you are twice as likely to contract and die from TB in Canada than in the US....)

Stomach cancer deaths
United Kingdom: 6.9
Canada: 4.6
United States: 3.4

And these two stats are the most telling of them all since they do not include the United states in the numbers, doing do would reduce the rest of the world to a laughingstock.

Heart transplants
United States 2170 (10 year running average)
Canada 111 (one year - unknown)

Kidney transplants
United States 14,000 4.6 (www.renalweb.com)

Canada 938 3.27

(that's right folks the god ole USA performs as many kidney transplants than the top 47 countries listed on Troggies site combined.....) (not to mention that that 2100 heart transplant number beats the 33 countries listed by 800)

10:53 PM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

Heart transplants
United States 2170 (10 year running average)
Canada 111 (one year - unknown)

Even better is the fact that we do twice as many heart transplants per capita than the much loved Candian system.....

11:19 AM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

And you got to loce the UK's one payer system........


On the whole, the United States also performs more transplants per capita, giving patients better odds of getting new organs. Doctors here do far more partial liver transplants from living, related donors but also more cadaveric transplants (where the organ comes from a deceased donor).

In 2002--a year comparative data are available--U.S. doctors performed 18.5 liver transplants per one million Americans. This is significantly more than in the U.K. or in single-payer France, which performed 4.6 per million citizens, or in Canada, which performed ten per million.

What about the differences in outcomes between ours and single-payer systems?

One recent study found that patients' five-year mortality after transplants for acute liver failure, the type from which Sarkisyan presumably suffered, was about 5 percent higher in the U.K. and Ireland than the United States. The same study also found that in the period right after surgery,
...... death rates were as much as 27 percent higher in the U.K. and Ireland than in the United States .....,
although differences in longer-term outcomes equilibrated once patients survived the first year of their transplant.

11:30 AM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

"I know what you want, troggy, you was the best care available at someone else's expense. You want your cake, but want someone else to pay for it."
(attempting to be) Sting Ray (again)

No, Ray. That's not what I'm saying at all. Jesus Christ. Here's another episode of "The Futility of Engaging Crazy People." I say "Sure is a nice day" and you say "They're not eating popcorn in El Salvador and I love getting bung-holed at every given opportunity." What do you say?

Let me ask you this: How many countries that have some form of socialized medicine have gone over to our system? Waiting. Waiting. Is it because Europeans (for example) are just too fucking gay?

We pay more than anyone else and yet are 36th in world in delivery. France (gay capitol of the world) comes out on top using that little ratio. That's a fact. If we don't fix it, we're going to pay even more - estimates run between 20 to 30 percent of each pay check. GM pays more for health care per car than they do for steel. That's a fact. Hospitals who, for the most part, treat people without insurance, pass the costs to the insurance companies that then raise their premiums and pass that on to you and me. WE'RE ALREADY PAYING FOR THE UNINSURED, Sting Ray, you dipshit, whether you like it or not. And because of the raised premiums, more and more people can't afford the insurance which makes them go to the hospital and the circle stays unbroken.

It's not greed from our point of view - the people paying the premiums. It's not. It's about coming up with a better system. If you don't want to do that, then you're a fucking loon. What's left to say?

Anybody out there got anything to drink? I'm suddenly thirsty for some strange reason.

2:15 AM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

Can't believe I didn't catch this one earlier -

"Do you honestly think that our betters in the White House, Senate and House have socialized health care?" the mighty elrond

Stepped in it now, big shot. Who pays for our exalted ones' insurance? That's all you really need to know.

2:23 AM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

Wait a minute! I DID catch it. It's just that I'm so damn thirsty...but I can't bring myself to drink the water.

2:26 AM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

Here is your government run healthcare....


Go in for gall bladder surgery on the military's (as troggy says socialist) dime, come out with no legs.....

got to love that socialist/government run medicine troggy......

9:12 AM  
Anonymous Elrond Hubbard said...


The White House and Congress do indeed have socialized health care. "Socialized" in that the federal goverment picks up the tab. But that's where the resemblance ends; POTUS and Congress get solid gold Cadillac health care; no waiting, no lines, no co-pays, no deductables. The pending health care bill exempts them from its provisions.

I would be more favorable to the pending bill if the White House and Congress amended it to extend its coverage to them. Why should they have better health care than the ordinary Joe?

2:25 PM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

Let me ask you this: How many countries that have some form of socialized medicine have gone over to our system? Waiting. Waiting. Is it because Europeans (for example) are just too fucking gay?

None because once the government gets its claws into your money they don't want to give it back to you...... control, control, control, it's what socialists are having.........your paycheck......

2:25 PM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

"The White House and Congress do indeed have socialized health care. "Socialized" in that the federal goverment picks up the tab." elrond

Well, since you and I fund the federal government, that makes it socialized. Simple.

And if this socialized shit is soooo fucking awful, why do every single member of Congress and the Senate do it? You make my point for me, elrond.

The truth is that the people telling you NOT to push for socialized medicine, are RECEIVING socialized medicine. By choice. Tell me you feel good about that. If what they want YOU to do is so fucking great, why aren't they doing it?

Answer that, you fucking monkey. Then again, never mind. You can't.

1:30 AM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

Good shit, Thomas. By the way, what do you pay for health-care?

1:36 AM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

1440 premium
3600 in flexben
I don't want govt. run health care.....

9:40 AM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

oh yeah that is for a family of 6.

9:41 AM  
Anonymous Elrond Hubbard said...


Do you actually read what I write?
Seriously, I say one thing and you completely ignore it or you take a snippet and run with that.

Let me try one more time. Congress and the White House have their Rolls-Royce health care paid by the taxpayer (that's you, me and 100,000,000 other people). This is not "socialized" health care; socialism means something (health care, education) that applies equally to everyone on a national basis.

The pending health care "reform"
has no relation to the level of "socialized" health care we provide our rulers in Wahington, D.C., we couldn't possibly afford it, we can't even afford the pending "reform".

Yeah, I don't doubt the people in the White House and Congress love their "socialized" health care. It's the best care in the world, I wish I had it; but it's not for Joe Citizen. Congress will give us crappy motor vehicle bureau service level health care. People my age will face reduced access to treatment and given counseling on our end of life options ("Take this pill baby boomer").

Obama and Congress can promise us health care heaven--more coverage, less cost. But it's a fantasy, as the Congressional Budget Office clearly states. The funding mechanism isn't there. We're already paying too much for health care and the people in Washington would have us pay more---but we're already broke.

5:39 PM  
Anonymous Elrond Hubbard said...

Soylent Green Moment

Today at a "town hall meeting" before AARP members Obama was asked about the proposed death counseling (for those of Medicare age) provision in the health care bill.

President: You know, I guarantee you, first of all, we just don't have anough government workers to send to talk to everybody, to find out how they want to die.

Me? I want to die behind the wheel of a '55 Chevy going the wrong way on I-95.

9:09 PM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

"I don't care to lose my freedoms to govt run health care...." thomas

Everything you listed would still be available. So your position is delusional. You wouldn't lose a thing. You could buy whatever you wanted. In fact, you would become more free because you'd have another option. A wider choice.

The fact that you think your freedoms are being curtailed makes you an ultra troglamatic dumbass. I'm not sure what to do with you. Ever hunted prehistoric mastodon? Have I got an adventure for you. $500.00 per day. After that, we'll storm the Hawaiian birth certificate offices. It should be a rollicking good time.

1:57 AM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

"Do you actually read what I write?" elrond

Yes. Unlike you, I do read what you write. You said: "Do you honestly think that our betters in the White House, Senate and House have socialized health care?"

Then you call me an imbecile. The truth is, elrond (you sack of shit), you're wrong. If you were honest with yourself, you'd examine why you made such a bone-headed statement. But then you'll somehow come up with a reason as to how I made you say it. The truth is the senate and the congress are covered by the VA. You and I pay for the VA. That makes it socialist.

How 'bout this? If socialized medicine is so fucked up, why are we using to take care of our soldiers and our leaders? Can one of you slimy salamanders answer that?

Tiresome assholes.

2:22 AM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

Who is talking about birth certificates... I am talking about the language in the bill that will mandate a certain coverage.....

From the web page that you obviously did not read....


"The outlook is worse for the second group. It encompasses employees who aren't under ERISA but get actual insurance either on their own or through small businesses. After the legislation passes, all insurers that offer a wide range of plans to these employees will be forced to offer only "qualified" plans to new customers, via the exchanges.

The bills seriously endanger the trend toward consumer-driven care in general. By requiring minimum packages, they would prevent patients from choosing stripped-down plans that cover only major medical expenses. "The government could set extremely low deductibles that would eliminate HSAs," says John Goodman of the National Center for Policy Analysis, a free-market research group. "And they could do it after the bills are passed."

....so that the govt. is limiting options.....

So that instead of paying $5040 per year in tax free money for health care the government will tax me that much if not more.

I don't remember calling you a dumb-ass this thread Troggy, but when the facts get in the way don't let that stop you from insulting people, great way to win someone over to the cause....

11:10 AM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

Now I am off to harass my congressperson into not supporting this oppressive load of govt. run healthcare.

11:11 AM  
Anonymous Elrond Hubbard said...


Both Congress and soldiers are covered by the VA so what you're saying is correct. But, as a former soldier myself, I can tell you that the level of care provided Congresspeople is miles above that provided soldiers.
Using the car metaphor (or simile. I forget which) Congress gets Rolls Royce coverage while soldiers get Volkswagen Beetle.

The VA is a kind of socialism (limited in coverage but paid by the taxpayer) but it's "Animal Farm" socialism where some animals are more equal than others.

I'll support single payer health care when everyone in the White House and Congress agrees to the same level of coverage that any
citizen (or illegal alien for that matter) would get.

What are the odds that happens?

2:36 PM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

The great masses of unwashed people seem to agree.....there are plenty of reasons to hate govt run healthcare......

The New York Times/CBS poll shows:

# Sixty-nine percent of respondents believe Obama's plan will hurt the quality of their own healthcare.

# Seventy-three percent believe it would limit their access to tests and treatment.

# Sixty-two percent believe Democrats' proposals would require them to change doctors.

# Seventy-six believe healthcare reform will lead to them paying higher taxes.

# A whopping 77 percent expect their healthcare costs to rise.

CBS anchor Katie Couric reported on the poll Wednesday evening.

“Less than half approve of the way President Obama is handling healthcare,” she told viewers. But she gave it a positive spin, saying: “So he has some convincing to do. And that took him today to the Tar Heel State.”

I'll sign on when I get the same level of care that the congress and White House get, not some bureaucratic nightmare of a system that wants grandma and grandpa to think about how they want to end their lives.....

3:21 PM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

"I'll support single payer health care when everyone in the White House and Congress agrees to the same level of coverage that any citizen (or illegal alien for that matter) would get." elrond

Well there you go. I, troglaman, am 100% behind this idea. We all should be. If private plans are soooo fucking great, why do none of these shitheads opt for that option? And why don't they want the rest of us to have the same thing?

This is all about us. If you don't think we're getting fucked, then you're an idiot and shouldn't involve yourself in the conversation. If you don't think we're getting fucked, then you're probably involved with fucking the rest of us or you're a brainless mule. It really is that simple.

I don't care if you agree with me, troglaman, about anything else. But you have to agree with me about this: we're getting fucked. The very people we've elected to represent us receive socialized health-care. You and I pay for it. And they don't want us to have the same thing. In fact, they claim what they are receiving will destroy the fabric of America. We will become socialistic (so scary) even though they're already socialistic.

If this fact is not clear to any of you, you're an idiot because what they're telling you is that the program they personally subscribe to, is bad and will ruin America. If you're bullshit alarm isn't keeping you up at night then there's something wrong with you. Any other argument is so fucking stupid, so self destructive...shit. I don't know what else to say. You fuckers are hell-bent to bend over.

4:13 AM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

"Well there you go. I, troglaman, am 100% behind this idea. We all should be. If private plans are soooo fucking great, why do none of these shitheads opt for that option? And why don't they want the rest of us to have the same thing?"

Nice try troggy but again Congress/senate/PotUS are on the gold plated private plan that is only socialized in the obtuse sense that we the tax payers pay the bill, no member of congress/the senate/PotUS will ever wait in line, be denied coverage or be told to wait for a MRI scan/surgery/medicine that they need because its cost is too high.

If they were in a socialized program Ted Kennedy would still be sitting in a ward somewhere waiting to die because it is not worth the cost at his age to do brain surgery, leaving the slot available for some younger lawmaker with more to contribute in 18-24 months.

Chris Dodd would be told to take a pill rather than prostrate surgery.

There are plenty of examples on the failures of govt run health care in England/Canada/Netherlands.

Why all these rules and conferences to establish govt run health care, why can't they just let us on their health care plan as is........

Why, because their plan is not for the people, it is for the political aristocracy, we are not worthy......

7:03 PM  
Anonymous troglaman said...

"Nice try troggy but again Congress/senate/PotUS are on the gold plated private plan that is only socialized in the obtuse sense that we the tax payers pay the bill" thomas

It's not obtuse to me, dumbfuck. If the taxpayers pay the bill, it's socialized. It's obtuse to you. Own the fuck up.

4:01 AM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

Again I managed to not insult you this entire time, yet you with your complete lack of a grasp on reality, can't be honest and answer why if this plan that they are working on for the rest of the great unwashed masses is so perfect, why are they exempting themselves from being forced to join it......

If Canada's system is so great why is the net flow of people that cross the border entirely from Canada to the US?

If the socialized system in the UK so great why do they have a mortality rate that is 27% higher after initially receiving a kidney transplant?

11:37 AM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

In the great bastion of socialized/government run healthcare..... Jolly old England.

The Government's drug rationing watchdog says "therapeutic" injections of steroids, such as cortisone, which are used to reduce inflammation, should no longer be offered to patients suffering from persistent lower back pain when the cause is not known.

Instead the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) is ordering doctors to offer patients remedies like acupuncture and osteopathy.

Specialists fear tens of thousands of people, mainly the elderly and frail, will be left to suffer excruciating levels of pain or pay as much as £500 each for private treatment.

The NHS currently issues more than 60,000 treatments of steroid injections every year. NICE said in its guidance it wants to cut this to just 3,000 treatments a year, a move which would save the NHS £33 million.

But the British Pain Society, which represents specialists in the field, has written to NICE calling for the guidelines to be withdrawn after its members warned that they would lead to many patients having to undergo unnecessary and high-risk spinal surgery.

Dr Christopher Wells, a leading specialist in pain relief medicine and the founder of the NHS' first specialist pain clinic, said it was "entirely unacceptable" that conventional treatments used by thousands of patients would be stopped.

"I don't mind whether some people want to try acupuncture, or osteopathy. What concerns me is that to pay for these treatments, specialist clinics which offer vital services are going to be forced to close, leaving patients in significant pain, with nowhere to go,"

The NICE guidelines admit that evidence was limited for many back pain treatments, including those it recommended. Where scientific proof was lacking, advice was instead taken from its expert group. But specialists are furious that while the group included practitioners of alternative therapies, there was no one with expertise in conventional pain relief medicine to argue against a decision to significantly restrict its use.

Dr Jonathan Richardson, a consultant pain specialist from Bradford Hospitals Trust, is among more than 50 medics who have written to NICE urging the body to reconsider its decision, which was taken in May.

He said: "The consequences of the NICE decision will be devastating for thousands of patients. It will mean more people on opiates, which are addictive, and kill 2,000 a year. It will mean more people having spinal surgery, which is incredibly risky, and has a 50 per cent failure rate."

One in three people are estimated to suffer from lower back pain every year, while one in 15 consult their GP about it. Specialists say therapeutic injections using steroids to reduce inflammation and other injections which can deaden nerve endings, can provide months or even years of respite from pain.

Experts said that if funding was stopped for the injections, many clinics would also struggle to offer other vital services, such as pain management programmes and psychotherapy which is used to manage chronic pain.

Anger among medics has reached such levels that Dr Paul Watson, a physiotherapist who helped draft the guidelines, was last week forced to resign as President of the British Pain Society.

Doctors said he had failed to represent their views when the guidelines were drawn up and refused to support the letter by more than 50 of the group's members which called for the guidelines to be withdrawn.

In response, NICE chairman Professor Sir Michael Rawlins expressed outrage over the vote that forced Dr Watson from his position, describing the actions of the society as "shameful". He accused pain specialists of refusing to accept that there was insufficient scientific evidence to support their practices.

A spokesman for NICE said its guidance did not recommend that injections were stopped for all patients, but only for those who had been in pain for less than a year, where the cause was not known.

4:06 PM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...


And in the compasionate, govt run healthcare, the old are too effing expensive.

This is the story I will gladly tell over and over.... to scare the crap out of them......

Iris Watkins, 80 from Appleton, in Cheshire said her life had been "transformed" by the use of therapeutic injections every two years. The pensioner began to suffer back pain in her 70s. Four years ago, despite physiotherapy treatment and the use of medication, she had reached a stage where she could barely walk.

"It was horrendous, I was spending hours lying on the sofa, or in bed, I couldn't spend a whole evening out. I was referred to a specialist, who decided to give me a set of injections. The difference was tremendous",

Within days, she was able to return to her old life, gardening, caring for her husband Herbert, and enjoying social occasions.

"I just felt fabulous – almost immediately, there was not a twinge. I only had an injection every two years, but it really has transformed my life; if I couldn't have them I would be in despair".

But now the compassionate govt. run system is going to tell her to FUCKOFF you are old and cost too much......

And this is what is coming for you gramps......

4:12 PM  
Anonymous troglaman said...


Why haven't any of these countries adopted our system?

And you lie. Maybe not lie...but you're a tool. You think things are fine.

They're not. No matter what you think. And, bottom line, you've never been right about anything. That fact alone should tell you something.

1:38 AM  
Anonymous Thomas F said...

"Why haven't any of these countries adopted our system?"

Because the government (as the administrators of the HC system) have control and won't let the people decide, whether they want to opt out of the system....

remember, control, control, control is the name of the game..... not reform or healthcare but control of your money.

"And you lie. Maybe not lie...but you're a tool. You think things are fine."

I tell the truth, (like BO in his own words that he wants single payer.)and that makes you angry..... Why so angry?

2:30 PM  

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